Podcast Guy 0:01
Welcome to Design Thinking Games the podcast where game design meets player experience and every game is a chance to support the community. Celebrate this fifth season of the Design Thinking Games podcast by not just talking about how games play, but diving into how they’re made, how they’re tested, and how communities keep them alive. All types of games are on the table, from table top to digital solo journaling to massive multiplayer. Come explore all forms of gaming and the design thinking behind them with your host, Tim Broadwater. Find every episode, including this one, wherever you get your podcasts or jump in at https://designthinkinggames.com/ now roll up your sleeves, open the play test notes and celebrate the power of play.
Tim Broadwater 0:55
So if you’ve been to gaming conventions similar to Origins, like Origins, they have a place called Unpub. And if you go to Unpub, it looks like a place where tons of tables are set up and people are playing games, but you’ll notice that the games are all prototypes or in progress or in development. I’m kind of curious about the whole Unpub process, and I found one of the people who was working the Unpub booth to answer some questions about what’s going on with this organization.
Christopher Chan 1:34
So first off, my name is Christopher Chan. I am a board game designer, among other things, and we are currently in Unpub Alley in Origins, which is kind of a large adjacent hallway to the main hallway by the exhibition hall. Unpub is short for the unpublished games network. We mostly just call it unpub, though, because we’re here to get unpublished games to the best they can possibly be, and then hopefully find them homes later. It is a place where designers can bring board games that they are working on and get them tested with people of the general populace or other designers, whoever comes to the table. We do events at a whole bunch of different conventions, including Pax Unplugged and a few others. There’s also a Unpub specific convention that’s just unpub all the time in Baltimore every year. They’re an organization that has been around for some time now, helping designers just get their games better through play testing and also by uniting them with other people who are like minded.
Tim Broadwater 2:45
This is fascinating to me, so I wanted to know how it worked and how long he’s been involved with Unpub.
Christopher Chan 2:52
The way that it works is that you reserve a table and you bring your game, you set up for a couple hours with your game. People come, they play test, they give you feedback, and then you go and you work on your game. So I’ve been doing Unpub events since like 2018 and that doesn’t mean always like going to the convention. Actually, the first Unpub event that I went to was a localized one in Pennsylvania. And then I went to PAX Unplugged for the first, like Unpub Alley experience that I ever had with them, which was so great. A, you know, board game conventions can be overwhelming, but, you know, when you find your little niche, you know, an Unpub was mine, and I just, I spend a lot of time at Unpub. Every time I go to a convention that has an Unpub event, there’s a lot of game designers who will volunteer with Unpub. Not everyone is a game designer, though, Ben, the glorious mayor of Unpub, is actually not a game designer for the most part, at least he would never admit that he is. You know, other folks who volunteer with the organization, or people who just really love the community and want to see new games come to life. I would say that they’re all people who are in the board game hobby in one way, shape or form. But not everyone’s a designer.
Tim Broadwater 4:14
The baseline is the passion for games.
Christopher Chan 4:17
Yes, yes.
Tim Broadwater 4:20
I then wondered, how many conventions does Unpub have a presence, and are there other things that are like Unpub out there? If unpub isn’t available,
Christopher Chan 4:30
It is at a lot of conventions. It’s not at all of them. Like, for instance, I have not seen Unpub at GenCon right? I think that’s that that’s historically been Double Exposure, different organization. You know, there are other, there are other game development organizations that exist around, you know, there’s also Protospiel, which I also attend. Unpub is, Unpub is a little bit different in terms of how it does its things for these. Other ones, and they all have their unique sort of structures and works generally, just because of the nature of the reserved blocks at Unpub, you will like test your game, and you might do some iteration like that night, and if you have another test or another block the next day, you might do that. I often bring two or three games to these events, record the feedback and iterate later. Whereas, like, I’m at a Protospiel, which is a little bit more of a workshopy environment, I tend to treat Unpub as a place where I bring, like, my mid or late stage games, and like a proto Spiel is generally where I’ll bring early games. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t bring early games to unpub. I do. I just treat it less like a workshop and more like a moment to gather useful information and insights and then to move on to the next game. If I feel like I need to do iteration.
Tim Broadwater 5:54
I’m also now super curious about his games, and if all of his games were play tested at unpub when they first started out.
Christopher Chan 6:04
I have a couple games. I the game that I’m probably best known for is a game called the Night Cage that I co designed and illustrated. This past year, I had a game called Stock Exchange come out with the OP. And this year, I had a game called Push, Push Penguin come out with wacky wizard. And in between all that, I did a game with new mill called Portents.
Tim Broadwater 6:29
All the games that you have that are out there published, are they all in an Unpub at one point?
Christopher Chan 6:37
Yes.
Tim Broadwater 6:38
Oh, nice. I wanted to know how volunteers or game designers can get involved learn more and how could they benefit from Unpub.
Christopher Chan 6:52
So if you ever decide you want to volunteer at unpub, we have a unofficial thing called the snack commission, wherein we volunteers bring the weirdest snacks we can find for each other, and we try them. I have, I have been able to get people to try possum flavored candy canes this way. And I’m, I’m proud.
Tim Broadwater 7:18
So it’s like, who can outdo? Who can out weird?
Christopher Chan 7:21
yeah, but that’s a secret. Don’t tell anyone. Get onto the unpub mailing list to start off, and they will put out calls for volunteers for conventions. You can also do see that on the Discord, and if you just pay attention to that, you’ll see when they’re asking for volunteers. And you can just sign up. It’s, it’s as simple as a Google Form at this point, you can, you can sign up for Unpub. We want you here. And as Ben likes to say it, it only works because you show up. That’s true of volunteers. That’s true of game designers. And you know, we’re so happy to see this organization grow and to bring more people.
Tim Broadwater 8:00
Thank you so much. Man,
Christopher Chan 8:01
Yeah, you’re welcome.
Moe Poplar 8:11
Dark Heist is a game of supernatural heists and larceny in a haunted Victorian city, recruit crooked monsters and monstrous crooks into your gang to do crimes and become the most notorious in the city. Dark Heist is a strategic deck building game for one to four players, full of evocative missions and plenty of player versus player backstabbing, inspired by Gothic Horror pulp crime novels and the role playing game Blades in the Dark this mid-weight board game plays from 60 to 90 minutes and is rated M for Mature. Find out more about Dark Heist at https://ashyfeet.com. Are you ready for the crime of your life? You
Tim Broadwater 8:57
I think anyone who goes to gaming conventions and is around a lot of ttrpgs would probably comfortably say that there are not enough good superhero based ttrpgs. That is why, when I see this booth up next, it has caught my attention.
Spencer Reichley 9:29
Sure I’m Spencer Reichley with BudStuff Games. We are all about just getting with your buds, playing some games, letting loose, you know, getting into some good role playing. Yeah, our whole vibe is just have fun with your friends. Collaborative storytelling. There’s a small group of people. So we got six guys, mostly based out of Ohio, and then one in Texas. Actually, it’s so it’s everything, but the art. The art comes from Max Bare, an artist out of Chicago. He’s a childhood friend of mine when we were developing the game. He’s the only one I could have imagined doing it. So we were pumped when I said, Yeah,
Tim Broadwater 10:03
What has drawn me to this booth is the large signage. We can be heroes, and a lot of superhero based imagery.
Spencer Reichley 10:12
You build your hero from the ground up, and we’ve got, you know, a slew of superpowers, auxiliary powers, innate abilities, that sort of thing. Secondary powers too. So you can kind of build a well rounded hero, or a super, hyper specific one. You could build, you know, your favorite heroes from other IPs. We encourage people to, you know, build their own superhero. You know, create their own thing. But you can still build Thor if you want to. Don’t sue me, Marvel. We have a we also have a we’ve got a whole custom setting with five unique cities that are based on real world locations. Steamland being my favorite. It’s based on Cleveland, where I’m from, and, well, kind of the rust belt. So Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, all kind of meshed into one, you know, blue collar thing.
Tim Broadwater 11:03
With most role playing games, you need a player’s handbook or a monster’s manual or a judge rule book. So I wondered what all was needed to play this game. So it’s like one book, like there’s no DM guide?
Spencer Reichley 11:17
it’s all in one Yeah, it’s 350 pages. So, yeah, we better, damn well better include everything in there, over 130 stat blocks for enemies and NPCs other superheroes, too, if you want to, you know, bring a friendly helper in. It’s a unique combat system. You know, we tried to design a game within 5e and it just wasn’t working for superheroes. It just doesn’t work very well. So we use large zones. We use action points as well. System we call the LZAP system, large zone action point. And it’s, it’s super fun. It’s fast paced, while still being, still being pretty strategic. D20, mainly. But then the superpowers at lower levels, you’re rolling a D12 plus a superpower die that you get from whatever superpower you choose, and that bumps up to D20 when you’re at level 10 and above. Superpowers always hit big feature for us, you’re using a expendable resource, so it always hits. It’s just gonna be a big swing of damage.
Tim Broadwater 12:17
I’m gonna keep my eyes on BudStuff Games, and so I’m wondering what I’ll constantly go to, what’s coming up for them, what special they have going on here at Origins, and how do I learn more about them in the future?
Spencer Reichley 12:31
We’ve done conventions before, but we were, like, promoting our Kickstarter, or we were at the GAMA convention. We were selling retailers and distributors, so many demos, so many tests. Yeah, so we’re doing $10 off. It’s usually 65 so it’s 55 now, you know, we’re an indie publisher, so you know, you might be able to buy a DnD book for, you know, 45 bucks or something like that. But you know, come support indie games if you’re not going to get ours, get someone else’s. Go to https://budstuffgames.com/, I know it sounds funny. It was intentional. So budstuffgames.com, follow us on Instagram, Facebook. We’ve got a Discord that’s super active, lots of really awesome people there that love our game. .
Michael Schofield 13:24
Thirst is a two to four player vampire vs vampire game ofdominion in which players become powerful, monstrous and bloodthirsty vampires. Rise from the graveyard, hungry to find that you are not the only creature of darkness in town, Fight other vampires for dominion over neighborhoods and for influence. Hunt, but hunt wisely. The first vampire to accrue an influence score of 10 wins and can finally slake their thirst. Thirst is on Kickstarter. Sign up to get notified of its at https://thirstboardgame.com/. Find thirst and other things we’re working on at https://designthinkinggames.com/.
Tim Broadwater 14:21
in the past, when I’ve attended origins, I’ve always been play testing first in Unpub or the open play areas. One of the people that I ran into in the past is another game designer who I’ve seen in Upub in the open play areas, play testing their own games. And now I recognize him. He’s at a booth, and I’m gonna go talk to him.
Tray Green 14:41
Hi, I’m Trey. I’m with Hillary’s Toy Box. We’re a small game manufacturer out of Abilene, Kansas. We’re here at origins booth 1145 in Columbus, Ohio. We’re a small family based manufacturer. We’ve been business since 1993 our first product, plague and pestilence was put out in 1993 made the game’s 100 list sold about 20,000 copies. After about a 20 year hiatus, we’re back with our first release of Popes and Plagues. It’s a card game of death and dying in the Middle Ages, happy family game about plague and pestilence and the Inquisition coming out this fall. We’ve got a new game on Kickstarter right now called Hide the Body. Everybody’s a villain. You’ve got a stack of bodies. They’re stacking up and quite up. Frankly, they’re starting to smell it’s time to get them in the ground. As you’re very busy burying the bodies, the inspector and his cadaver dog are digging around looking for them, if you have a shovel in your hand, literally and figuratively, you’re able to hit the inspector over the head at his body to the hole. So that’s coming out this fall, this winter, we’ve got another game called Pigs Rule. It’s based on George Orwell’s Animal Farm. It’s a card game where the pigs make the rules.
Tim Broadwater 16:00
I was so impressed as this person could rattle off game after game that they have coming out as a seasoned professional off the top of their head, I now wondered, well, how many games in total are there for Hillary’s Toy Box?
Tray Green 16:14
Right now we have two games that are actively out there, Plague and Pestilence, and then Popes and Plagues. Historically, we’ve done work both under Hillary’s Toy Box and for other game manufacturers in development. The neat thing is, during our 20 year hiatus from production, we were still developing games. So right now, we’re sitting on a queue of about seven to 10 games that we’ll be releasing over the next two to three years,
Tim Broadwater 16:43
I then asked what was the focus for Hillary’s toy box after Origins and going into the future
Tray Green 16:50
Pigs Rule, and then we’re going to follow that up during the during the midterm elections with our Strange Bedfellows, the card game of political dirty tricks. Then we have multiple other titles that we can’t really divulge right now, but we’re actively seeking play testers and blind testers. So if you if you don’t know what that means, it’s these small game companies, mom and pop shops like ourselves, that need outside testing and or final editing. We’ll send you print-to-play copies of the game, and you can blind test them, knowing nothing about it, and help us make sure that our products ready for final delivery.
Tim Broadwater 17:29
If you’re interested in play testing for Hillary’s toy box, or just want to learn more about you know the company and their games…
Tray Green 17:39
You can email us directly at hillarystoybox@gmail.com, follow us on Instagram, Twitter or Facebook @HillarysToyBox (all run together) or visit our website (https://hillarystoybox.com/), follow the contact links and get to us that way. Meet us. Check our convention page, come to our show, meet us in person. We love to meet the people that play our games.
X Seekers of Fortune 18:05
The deserts heat never rest, but neither do your rivals. Push forward. At last, you followed the leads and found what you’re after, half buried within the crumbling runes the green eyed totem stares back at you. It’s emerald eyes glinting by the light of your torch. But you’re not alone. You’ve been followed, and you should have been more careful. Rookie mistake, your rival has you in their sights. What are they plotting? Sabotage, a blade edge bargain, or perhaps a bit of strategic arson. No matter the case, one thing is certain, if your glory is imminent, they will try to thwart you with everything they’ve got. How do you know? Because you would do the same. This is no time to waver. It’s time to dig deep and break through to claim your glory. Stay sharp, play smart, and you might just find fortune is in your favor. In X Seekers of Fortune, an ever expanding, action packed adventure card game. Pre order now at https://xseekersoffortune.com, and seek your fortune today.
Tim Broadwater 19:23
When I go to a convention like Origins, I’m always on the lookout for certain games or anything games wise, that is new and I’ve not seen before. I take turn down a particular hallway of booths, and I see the sign and a cool logo for Hectic Electron Games.
Chrys Sellers 19:54
Hi, I’m Chrys Sellers. My imprint is Hectic Electron Games. I made a.game called Raccoon Sky Pirates, about chaos and trash and kick starting right now a game called Defy the Gods. It’s a queer sword and sorcery adventure romance in fantasy. Ancient Mesopotamia finds intersections between the sword and sorcery archetypes and queer life. So every playbook is a sword and sorcery archetype as well as a recognizable figure from queer life, sword, the sorcerer, The Revenant, who’s just escaped from the underworld. And it is a world where jealous gods and cruel tyrants want to destroy you, and you and your friends are fighting back.
Tim Broadwater 20:46
Sounds kind of familiar?
Chrys Sellers 20:49
I know, right, it’s maybe almost too real. Yeah,
Tim Broadwater 20:55
This sounds very cool, and something I want to learn more about, and so I’m kind of wondering about what is the promotion that’s going on right now at origins,
Chrys Sellers 21:02
it’s kick starting right now. It’s already funded and reached one stretch goal. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And we’re heading toward the second stretch goal. And if anybody is here and wants to back at the booth, they’ll get this pretty quick start, 80 pages for free.
Tim Broadwater 21:21
Never heard of hectic Electron games before, and so I’m wondering if this was their first origins, and how I could learn more about them.
Chrys Sellers 21:32
No, no, it’s like my umpteenth origins, my third origins, exhibiting. Yes, at https://hecticelectron.com. I’m at hectic electron on BlueSky and Tumblr and Instagram, and I’m on a bunch of different Discords. My own Discord is kind of struggling so like, like, which is to say I haven’t watered it enough so, but look for me on blue sky and Tumblr and Instagram. Thank you so much.
Podcast Guy 22:08
Thank you for listening to Design Thinking Games. Your time is valuable, and it means a lot that you spent it here in season five. Stay connected on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and YouTube. DMs are always open and don’t forget to visit https://designthinkinggames.com to request topics, ask questions or see what else is going on. If indie vampire board games sound like your thing, check out thirst, where vampires and minions fight for influence in a dark city. Head to https://ThirstBoardgame.com to follow the journey and get updates when it launches on Kickstarter, October 1 until next time game on you.