047: Providing Value, Building Community with Kervin from For Why Games

For Why Games’ founder advises our heroes to endeavor to provide real value to one’s community so that the community will turn out.

Things discussed in this episode:

  • 00:37 – Kervin discusses his journey into TikTok and board game design
  • 01:31 – Inspiration for creating a Allow Me to Mansplain
  • 04:52 – Why “For Why Games”?
  • 06:21 – Marsh Hallow
  • 09:07 – Explanation of roll-and-write mechanics and their unique approach
  • 12:48 – Kervin’s approach to playtesting and community building
  • 16:48 – How to connect with Kervin and For Why Games
  • 18:08 – We play D12

Kervin: My name is Kirvan. I’m with For Why Games. I’m a board game designer, publisher, and content creator. I got my start on TikTok kind of as a joke. I didn’t think I’d actually do it. It all kind of started when I had an idea for a board game, and it was during the pandemic, and I wanted to figure out a way to try to market it.

Conventions really weren’t an option. And so as a joke, I put TikTok. And then when I started to, actually think about it, it kind of made sense. I did a bunch of, like, research, and even though it started off as a joke, uh, it’s kind of weird to think that when people think of board game TikTok, they kind of think of me, which is kind of cool.

From idea to content creator

[00:00:37] Kervin: I get into a lot of conversations with people in the industry who are always really piqued when I say that I do TikTok, especially as a designer and a publisher, because most publishers want to be on TikTok, but it’s a lot of work and they don’t want to either do it or pay someone to do it.

Whenever I talk about how great TikTok is and how many people are on TikTok, I don’t know if people actually believe me. And whenever publishers are like, Can you give me a list of content creators who you really enjoy? I was asked that enough times to be like, I guess I’m just going to create a master list of content creators.

I separated them by like under a thousand, under 10k, and over 10k. And next to, on the spreadsheet, I put a link to make it as user-friendly as possible so they can go straight to their account, kind of figure out what their content’s about, and figure out whether or not they wanted to collaborate with them.

And I think one of the coolest parts about being a content creator and a publisher is getting your friends paid, and getting your friends to get games they normally wouldn’t get for their channels.

The story behind Allow Me To Mansplain

[00:01:31] Tim: Why make a game during the pandemic?

[00:01:33] Kervin: I wasn’t inspired to make a game. I wanted to buy the game. I woke up in the middle of the night wanting to buy a mansplaining game. And there were two out there. There was called Mansplain It. And I think it was just mansplaining. And when I looked at the instructions, it read like a trivia game, which was very confusing to me.

And I didn’t really understand why it was like a trivia game.

I asked some of my friends why it was like that, and the response was, Kervin, you’re not the target audience for that. And so I was like, that’s weird. Well, what would my game look like? I was eventually asked that question, and I ended up designing the game at an AGB.

Just laughing for like two hours in the produce section I was on the phone, uh, typing and talking to one of my friends and then I was just like, okay, that’s kind of cool. And then I went into the office for training and my coworkers asked what I was up to. And I mentioned this game and they said they wanted to play it.

So I made my first prototype and then they decided to play it and they said, it’s wonderful. And then they were like, when can we buy it? And I said, I don’t know. No idea. And so I did all this research. I listened to a bunch of podcasts, watched a bunch of YouTube videos, read a bunch of blogs, and after about two months of research, I decided it was something that I think I could do.

So I said, why not? And then that’s when I put TikTok on that list, and it’s kind of all been downhill from there.

I have a lot of girlfriends who complain, Who are like, lawyers, doctors, engineers, And they get mansplained all the time, And I, and I heard all of their rants, And the one thing I remember that they all had in common, was that, they would say like a phrase, that they knew would be a mansplaining phrase:” at least my mother knew, you look like you don’t know, why don’t you know,” etc, etc.

And so, when I wanted a mansplaining game, that’s kind of what I wanted. I really wanted a Taboo style, improv style, party game. When I was designing the game in the grocery store, I made a list of like 200, because I have a really good memory when it comes to like people and stories.

And a lot of the phrases that are in the game, I wrote that day in the grocery store. And the game was kind of there, and because it’s a party game, the main mechanics were already there. There are things we had to figure out, but a lot of the who, what, why, when, where, I had a general idea of what I wanted it to be, and I saw it, and I went for it.

[00:03:50] Kervin: I’m a theater gay. Did it in high school, did it in college, my degree’s in film. Before board games, I was really into paper crafting. I remember being like, if anyone’s a paper crafter, they know there’s not a lot of boy stuff. And if it is, it’s licensed and incredibly expensive. So, I decided, I guess I’m gonna try to find some boxes.

Couldn’t find any boxes, so I decided to like, make my own boxes. Got cardstock, the paper, I’ve always been the type of person where, if I think I can do it, I’m gonna do it, and nothing really can change my mind until I see it all the way through. And I remember when I joined TikTok, I was like a hundred followers, that’s all I could ever want and dream of, life would be golden, and then within a month I hit a hundred, within four months I hit a thousand, and that was when boardgame TikTok was very, very small.

There was maybe like five or, I’m sorry, like 10 or 15 content creators total, and it’s been two and a half years later and I just hit 10k, which is insane to think that I could get paid and monetize my content.

Why “For Why Games”?

[00:04:52] Tim: Did you know the name of the game studio before you made the game or For Why Games?

[00:04:57] Kervin: So the story behind For Why Games is during the pandemic, one of my best friends, uh, me, her, and her mom, for the extent of the pandemic, we were, they were advising to have like a pandemic buddy, where it’s like one person you would see, because we were all working from home, and I decided it would be them.

I’d go to their house once a week, and our big thing to get us through the pandemic was playing the game Overcooked on Steam. My friend’s mom is in her late 60s, and she really just wanted to give video games a try, and I think we played Overcooked. Two times a week, every week for, like, a year and a half.

We four starred all the levels, and she’s kind of one of my favorite people. I kind of wanted to pay homage to her because how many senior citizens are like, sure, I’ll play a Euro style game.

I’ll play a video game. And whenever there was a board game, she would sit down and she would give it a try. Uh, I went to high school with her daughter. We’ve known each other forever and she’s from Louisiana and in Louisiana, they have lots of Louisiana isms. Phrases like, Are you beinghave? for Are you behaving?

And I remember the first time she ever said, For why? I looked at her and I was like, Excuse me? And she’s like, For why, Kervin? I’m like, I don’t know what’s happening. And so it just kind of became a joke to where one Christmas we all got sweaters and hoodies that said like, For why? on it. And so, when I was naming my studio, I couldn’t think of a better name than For Why Games.

Marsh Hollow

[00:06:21] Kervin: My first game is called Allow Me to Mansplain. Uh, it’s a mansplaining party game. I did that about, that was the first game I published, probably a little over a year ago. And it’s a game that places an emphasis on things that men say before they mansplain.

My next project is going to be called Marsh Hollow.

It’s a marshmallow cultist roll and write, where there’s these marshmallows who can set things on fire, and you play a marshmallow slash animals armed with water guns who cultists from burning down your hollow. That’s why it’s called Marsh Hollow, and I’ve been playtesting it for about a year, on and off for a year.

We’re working on the art. It’s a game I love. It’s a game that I tease a lot on my friends only videos on TikTok. I put the art at the end. The art is something I’m super proud of. The game is something I’m super proud of, and I can’t wait for it to launch. I’m hoping for either Q4 this year or Q1 next year.

How the idea for Marsh Hollow emerged

[00:07:16] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Like, Marsh Hallow has, a lot of passerby stopping power. When we were at like PAX U, like all of a sudden, like, here’s someone with like a whole bunch of marshmallows, you know? Is there a story behind how this came to mind?

[00:07:32] Kervin: So the person whose mom I named For Why Games after, she’s the co designer in Marsh Hollow. She got her degree in graphic design from Syracuse. And for her senior thesis, she had to pick one item, like one character, and do it in a bunch of mediums. And the character she chose was a marshmallow. She did, like, postcards and, uh, she the coolest thing she did was this huge, like, web Or woodblock carving of like a tongue, but each instead of taste buds, they were marshmallows with like personalities.

It was insane, and she had these like postcards, and I remember it was about like a year, year and a half ago, I was like in my closet, and I found one of the postcards that she had made for one of the prints for her senior thesis, and I looked at that game, or looked at the postcard, and I literally saw Marsh Hollow.

And so I, I little, I saw that I went to her and I said, Hey, you said we’ve always wanted to do some creative thing together. Will you make this game with me? Because this is what I see. And that’s kind of how Marsh Hallow has started.

Most roll and writes are, are very intimidating to people, or they think it’s a solo game, or they think it’s very boring, and I kind of wanted to try to change misconceptions about it, because I love roll and writes, and so we spent a lot of time on, like, user experience, how things are laid out, trying to, not, a lot of roll and writes, like, there’s complaints about how they look like a second grade workbook, how it feels like you’re just doing math with tweezers, I’ve heard it and I think I’ve made a co op that’s super fun and doesn’t necessarily feel like a rolling right or at least traditional rolling rights

On roll-and-writes and how Marsh Hallow approaches the genre

[00:09:07] Michael Schofield (Overdub): What’s the TLDR on like roll and write as a, a style of game and how Marsh Hallow is inspired to do something different with it.

[00:09:16] Kervin: So roll and write is a mechanic, but it’s also a genre of games. So when people say roll and write, people will think of like Yahtzee. Yahtzee’s a perfect example. For a roll and write, it traditionally is like a piece of paper, a pencil, and then dice to roll. Or it could also be a flip and write, where instead of dice as a randomizer, you have cards.

And generally, roll and writes, you roll dice, it has a value, you can like do math to figure out whether or not you want to increase or decrease that value, and then interact with the board using the dice. That’s how traditional roll and writes are.

Uh, a lot of my favorite roll and writes, they are very illustrative heavy, to the point where it’s not as clean as it could be. Like, they went for an artistic choice instead of, like, a more minimalist choice, or a choice that, like, it was not made for a, like, intro, like, a gateway gamer for roll and writes. Uh, the biggest complaints are it feels like a solo game.

It looks like a, it feels like a second grade workbook. It doesn’t immerse you into an experience. Themes aren’t really a thing unless they’re like dungeon crawlers.

And so generally speaking, the type of roll and writes there are, I call them the polyominal roll and writes, or like the Tetris piece roll and writes, where you’re given Tetris pieces, and you’re given a limited amount of space, and your goal is to place them as efficiently as possible, using different conditions and winning conditions.

Or more of like an exploration roll and write, where, or let’s try it, there’s like a combo tastic roll and write, or a cascading bonus roll and write, where it’s like, very engine building, very like, if you, if you cross this out, it gives you this, which gives you this, which gives you this. Which is like a, I would say that’s more of like a traditional, um, roll and write.

And then there’s like the dungeon crawler ones, where obviously you like, there’s square space, you’re trying to navigate a dungeon, trying to collect items, kill monsters. Those are the, generally speaking of course, those are like the three genres of roll and writes that I think of.

I’ve shared very minimally over the last like year and a half about the game, ranging from like the art and main mechanics, and it’s not that I’m afraid to share them, but I was more afraid of someone seeing the art of the game falling in love with it, and then what if that changes?

Because we change the art style like two or three times. And then people are like, oh well that’s not as good as the first or second rendition. And also I have friends who are artists who on TikTok, they like would post their art. And it got stolen, and then got reproduced, and, like, it is one of those things where it’s a very real thing, and when people say, like, it couldn’t happen, it happens on TikTok all the time.

And so that’s one of the reasons why I’m really sure about the art, and as far as the mechanics go, same thing for mechanics. I didn’t realize the game was a dungeon crawler, which is hilarious, because it absolutely is a dungeon crawler. Because the game started off as a Defend the Tower style roll and write.

I wanted there to be like marshmallows guarding a fire, people come from different directions, but then I realized there was just too many mechanics for the genre of game, and the whole point was to get people who normally don’t like roll and writes to try a roll and writes. So instead of defend the tower, it kind of been, it kind of transformed into an attack the tower style. And in the process, turned into a dungeon crawler, which I realized like a week ago, which makes me kind of sad because I don’t like dungeon crawlers, but I like Marsh Hollow.

A very intentional process

[00:12:48] Tim: When do you start sharing it with other content creators to site building hype, all that kind of stuff.

[00:12:53] Kervin: I will say when it comes to board game publishing and board game design, my process is very different from a lot of other publishers and content and board game designers that I’ve interacted with mostly because, uh, I’m not a dreamer. I’m not the type of person who’s just like, Oh, it would be cool if, and then list a billion things, and then if I don’t do them all, that’s fine.

I’m very intentional. I very much look before I leap, and I very much am super type A about research. And that’s not to say that, like, things can’t go wrong, but I like to have an idea of what I’m getting into. And so, when, back when I first started and did all of my research, if you’ve done your research, you know that most people don’t make their money back on their first game, and it’s their second or third game that they, are able to recoup their money back.

So, that was one of the big reasons why I didn’t do a Kickstarter for my first game, Allow Me to Mansplain. I just wanted to, like, put myself out there and with the end goal of, like, building a community, building an audience, and using them to catapult myself to make sure my second game is a success. And I’ve always had that in the back of my brain.

If you, even if you go back to my old TikToks, on TikToks, uh, when you’re a content creator on TikTok, you can either choose to go viral, or you can choose, like, build a community. And that you, and when you choose to build a community, you don’t always get the views. If you go back, most of my TikToks, three, four hundred views, those were, I was solidifying relationships.

I was solidifying people who found me interesting, and it would, it would make people, make me reach out as well as other people reach out to get to know me. And when I wanted to build my community, the majority of my community is, fellow content creators and publishers. So when I first playtested my game, it was at GenCon of last year.

I had five people playtest my game, and they were five OG For Why Games followers. And it was like super emotional for me, and I was super nervous, and it was the worst playtest I ever ran, because I was just like, they’re actually playing my game, and they’re in person, and they’re wonderful people. But I also chose them because they’re all very different types of gamers, who have very different types of interests, and have varying levels of experience with roll and writes.

And a lot of their feedback changed the game to what it was for, like, PAX Unplugged. As, as far as my experience, as far as, like, my goals for playtesting, a lot of my, because it’s a roll and write, and because I, it’s, you can play it solo, I’ve played the game a lot easily 300, 400 times and I’m still not sick of that.

And I, I, I love playing games. I love trying new games and I have tried every strategy that you could possibly have with this game or see how things work and know what the. Breaking point is, and then in the game, so in the game, you place pieces on a map to interact. They’re not quite Tetris pieces, but they’re like Tetris adjacent pieces.

And, what, normally you would just draw those pieces onto the map, but I have over 200 printed pieces of paper, where instead of like, drawing that piece, I would, I would like number the piece. In each of the following squares, so I could actually figure out, like, at what point did I actually lose the game?

I have a ton of data, I have a ton of spreadsheets, I’m a huge spreadsheet nerd. And so, that’s kind of where the majority of my playtesting was, was just like, hey, I’ll play this a bunch, you play this a bunch, I’m gonna kind of figure it out. And then, slowly incorporate more people who will be honest and have a vested interest in me doing well to, like, play the game.

And I’m just slowly incorporating more and more, and then all I’ve been doing since PAX Unplugged is essentially just working on the manual and trying to get everything nice and tight for playtests, because I intend to play the game with most members of BoardGameTikTok. And because it’s a roll and write, all they have to do is print one piece of paper and we can play together on, like, Discord or something.


[00:16:48] Tim: If people want to learn more about you or learn more about For Why Games or get connected or find anything out about Marsh hollow, where would, should they go? How do they connect to you?

[00:17:00] Kervin: Normally I tell people if they want to learn more about me just to follow my TikTok, which is just ForWhyGames.Fun. I do have a Discord server, I don’t use it as much as I should, I’ve been kind of just DMing people instead of just like doing, focusing on building a community there. I don’t, I’m not like a traditional publisher where most people have like a listserv.

I definitely just DM people when I need them. And so, which sounds kind of crazy, but I was like, it’s more helpful, right? If I either have their phone numbers, email addresses, or, which is something that I’m definitely going to start building towards getting closer to the Kickstarter, because obviously I’m going to start sending like blind play tests and let people like play that with, with their friends and family who I might not ever know.

Uh, I’m going to be at Gen Con this year. I’m going to be at PAX Unplugged. I will be running play tests. And. Yeah, oh, and there’s obviously there’s the board game TikTok discord server, which a lot of members of board game TikTok are on and normally at conventions, they’ll say where they’re located or where they are on that discord server in case you want to hang out.


[00:18:08] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Describe your favorite die.

[00:18:12] Kervin: Uh, I basically, I’m definitely, I like a D6. I think it’s a solid,

[00:18:18] Michael Schofield (Overdub): this is like the Barbara Walters question. Like if you were a game die, which one would you be and why?

[00:18:25] Kervin: I think I would be a dice that’s like all threes on all sides. Cause one of those things, like, like, it seems really weird, but if you can make it work, like, I think it’d be awesome. And that’s very much how my brain works, where it’s just like, that’s an idea, but I think it works, and I’m just gonna go for it.


[00:18:43] Michael Schofield (Overdub): What is your Dungeons and Dragons alignment?

[00:18:46] Kervin: Whatever’s under lawfully good. It can’t be lawfully good, but I’m definitely under that.

It’s just good, right? It’s just good, right? It’s just good.

[00:18:52] Michael Schofield (Overdub): it’s just like true good, right? Or neutral good. That’s what it is.

[00:18:56] Kervin: Yeah, yeah, that’s, cause I, cause I feel like it’s too much time, energy, and anxiety to be lawfully good. So, I think I’m

[00:19:02] Michael Schofield (Overdub): You really have to like adhere to like a code of ethics and that’s a cognitive load that, I mean, who can even carry that around these days?

[00:19:09] Kervin: I, I, I have to nap, there’s no way.

[00:19:11] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Yeah. Paladin’s very sleepy.

[00:19:15] Kervin: Ten.

[00:19:17] Michael Schofield (Overdub): What is your earliest gaming memory?

[00:19:23] Kervin: Playing taboo at prom with a stranger? Uh, I had to get someone to say the word orange. And the clue I gave was, this doesn’t rhyme with anything. And they said orange, and they thought I, we cheated. And I was just like, you’re just bad at this game.


[00:19:39] Michael Schofield (Overdub): What is your favorite card game?

[00:19:42] Kervin: Jesus. Uh, I would have to go, is it, yeah, Hanabi? I would say Hanabi. I, it’s like a co-op fireworky. Like you don’t see the cards on your hand, you’re trying to place things in consecutive order. I, I think it’s a, it’s a solid go-to


[00:20:01] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Are you a Paragon? Or a renegade, do you take the good path in an RPG or the evil path?

[00:20:08] Kervin: Oh, the Paragon, obviously. Yeah.

I think it’s too much energy to be evil. There’s creative ways that you, I feel like it’s also the easy choice. Like if you want to be evil, just break stuff, just punch people, just steal things. But like to be able to play your character interesting, uh, I think it requires a lot more like intentionality and yeah, that’s normal if I, that’s why I would say Paragon.

[00:20:28] Kervin: Four.

[00:20:29] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Describe your favorite color mode, such as RGB, hexadecimal, Pantone, CMYK. I

[00:20:45] Kervin: I barely know what a pantome is. Uh, uh, I don’t even know how to answer that question.

[00:20:52] Michael Schofield (Overdub): think that’s fine. I like primary colors.

[00:20:59] Tim: yeah, I think the spin off alternate of that is the favorite. What is your favorite color? And why?

[00:21:04] Michael Schofield (Overdub): What’s your favorite color?

[00:21:07] Kervin: it’s green, but I always lie and say orange because I feel sorry for it.

[00:21:11] Tim: Okay.

[00:21:12] Michael Schofield (Overdub): think like, uh, do you, do you think like if all the colors were like anthropomorphic and, and like we’re at a party, like, uh, like orange is on their own.

[00:21:23] Kervin: Kind of, like if UT’s color wasn’t orange, I don’t know what else would be orange.

[00:21:27] Michael Schofield (Overdub): I, I just don’t feel like orange is like a wallflower though. So like, like if orange is like a pop of energy, like right in the middle,

[00:21:34] Kervin: i, but when I think of orange, I think of like a, like the burnt orange. Like that’s what I think of when I think, and so it’s just like, it’s just more of just like, they’re just like a downer. I just, I don’t think it’s a very lively color.

[00:21:44] Tim: Yeah,

[00:21:44] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Tim, are you wearing orange right now? It’s

[00:21:47] Tim: I’m wearing red. Orange, I agree to some degree, because I think orange only matters when it’s next to another color. People notice it pops against blue, or people notice it pops against warm colors or cool colors. Yeah, exactly, so.

[00:22:00] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Wow. We’re getting deep guys.

[00:22:07] Kervin: Two.

[00:22:09] Tim: Oh,

[00:22:11] Michael Schofield (Overdub): When you’re playing a game, uh, especially if it has like heavy story elements, do you prefer theater of the mind? Or like maps and miniatures.

[00:22:20] Kervin: I, like, I think with maps and miniatures, like, it’s helpful for, like, context, but I think it’s limiting in some ways. Like, at least for like how my brain works. It’s just like, if you see like, these are where you can go and this is how you can move, but like, I feel like, what if that’s not like how I would want to move or that’s how, like, I’m, I think people arbitrarily do put things in games sometimes that make me feel like, oh, I can’t do that because they arbitrarily did that and it would be really interesting.

And I might be able to win if I could do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Three.

[00:22:54] Michael Schofield (Overdub): What games should everybody play at least once?

[00:22:58] Kervin: At least once. My first thought is Splendor, only because I don’t, I didn’t think I liked, uh, oh gosh, what is that genre of game called? Uh, engine building games. Um, and that’s the first engine building game where I’m like, oh, that’s actually decent. And has enough player interaction, and you can quasi tell what people are doing, but not doing.

I just, I feel like it’s just a, it’s just a solid, great game that most people would enjoy.

[00:23:29] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Compared against like other, uh, engine building games that you’d like, don’t like, like what does Splendor do right?

[00:23:37] Kervin: Relatively controversial statement. I’m not the biggest fan of Wingspan, because I feel like in order to love Wingspan, You have to know what, like, what all the possible options are to thoroughly enjoy the game and better prepare. Like, you need to study or play the game enough to do well at Wingspan. And I feel like at Spl with, like, Splendor, all the resources that are available, you can physically see.

Like, you don’t have to play the game ahead of time to, like, Figure out, like, what combo may or may not work, or how to build your engine. Like, you can play Wingspan and be like, Oh, obviously this engine might be in the game, but then, like, you might not ever get to the attempt to build it. And I feel like Splendor is concise enough to where you can easily see and imagine the engine well.

[00:24:20] Michael Schofield (Overdub): When you attack do you use your strength, your dexterity or like another attribute?

[00:24:29] Kervin: Oh, uh, I would probably do dexterity, for sure. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I’m a 5’2 dude, and I always think that like, I, I’ve always said, like, I’ve never really gotten to a fight. If I got like one solid punch, I’d be good. So it’s just like figuring out weird ways to do stuff. And that’s, and when I do play D& D, it’s always just like, that was an option for you.

I’m like, always. Of course that’s an option for me.

[00:24:52] Tim: nice.

[00:24:54] Michael Schofield (Overdub): What is your genre alternate history, horror, noir, what is your genre?

[00:24:59] Kervin: Romantic comedies, 1000%.

[00:25:02] Michael Schofield (Overdub): what’s your favorite?

[00:25:04] Kervin: Uh, my favorite one? As re Most recent favorite one, uh, it’s

[00:25:10] Michael Schofield (Overdub): I feel like there’s a lot of caveats here.

[00:25:12] Kervin: there’s So my boyfriend, uh, bought the movie because it was a dollar, as a joke, not thinking I would actually like it. Uh, So it’s called DUFF and it stands for like, Dumb, Ugly, Fat Friend. And it talks about how like, every group has one and if there isn’t one, it’s you. And it’s just like, it’s just like, it’s so funny and random and it’s just like, all the feels. And like, it’s awesomely bad and I love it.

[00:25:40] Michael Schofield (Overdub): Amazing. Yeah.

[00:25:45] Tim: Weren’t you also joking with Danny and Joel that they could make X: Seekers of Fortune a romantic comedy expansion? Or

[00:25:53] Kervin: no, I was not joking. So, hold on, let me talk about that really quick. So, uh, Danny and Joel, they’re the, uh, they’re part of Mega Moth Studios, and they have a game coming out called X: Seekers of Fortune. And it’s like this adventure, Indiana Jones themed game. And they were talking about, like, expansions.

for their game, and they think of expansions, they think of them as genre of movies, and in the game there are these, uh, relics that you can play as either, like, Noble or Ruthless. Noble will help you, Ruthless will, like, annoy the person you’re playing, and I, like, half jokingly said if you ever do romantic comedies, you’re gonna have to do, like, an enemies to lovers trope, where you’re gonna have to, like, for the first half the game, you’re gonna have to play it on Ruthless, and the last half the game, you have to play it on Noble.

And they were like, I don’t know how balance wise that would work. I was like, I would make it work. I promise I’d make it work.

[00:26:46] Tim: That’s amazing, that. I think it’s a good idea. There’s a, alright, Michael, you’re in to a question. Here we go, question 12 of

[00:26:59] Michael Schofield (Overdub): time? Just a, it doesn’t matter what number it is. Cause I’m going to pick a specific question.

[00:27:03] Kervin: Three.

[00:27:05] Michael Schofield (Overdub): All right. You rolled a one.

[00:27:06] Kervin: I rolled a one.

[00:27:12] Michael Schofield (Overdub): things are getting tense here, like around the table. The camera finally pans to you and you roll your last death save. You are dying.

What are your final words? Awesome. Well,

[00:27:34] Tim: I ain’t no hater. Nice.

[00:27:40] Michael Schofield (Overdub): thank you for playing D12, the best game on board game podcast.

Parting advice: provide value

[00:27:49] Kervin: Um, Oh, I guess there is something, uh, I think I would like to add. Um, I think a lot of board game designers and publishers when they enter the industry, they, their approach is like very different to mine. And one of the things that I always approached people and the industry with was to make sure that like I provide value. When you’re, when you’re building connections and you’re networking, you have to be able to give them something to like return in a conversation that way you’re not always just taking.

And I feel like that’s Part of like why I’ve had this community approach to like how my games work and how my TikTok works and Because TikTok was the one thing I can provide value on that not a lot of people especially publishers were able to do It got me in a lot of converse like my foot in the door with a lot of conversations with publishers that I normally would Never have and to be able to talk shop with a publisher Like, for instance, Fireside Games, who, very well respected, their games are really great, they’re wonderful people, and to know that, like, they can still learn something from you, it’s, it’s like an amazing feeling, and for aspiring designers and publishers, just kind of keep that in the back of your mind, just always, like, how do you provide value?

Because, without value, are you ever gonna have a community? Yes, your game might be great, you might be able to sell it, but once you sell that game, it only gets you so far.

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